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Old 26. May 2011, 05:59 AM   #21 (permalink)
J_L
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Providing permissions is far from no maintenance. If I still had NoScript, my stress level would be 9.
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Old 26. May 2011, 06:15 AM   #22 (permalink)
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Quote:
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If I still had NoScript, my stress level would be 9.
Thats because YOU make it so and because you have a bunch of plugins and
Java in your computer. I only have Flash on FF and I let NoScript do what its
supposed to do. What YOU see as a "broken page", I see as a "safer page".
My browsing, opening emails, playing videos or opening PDF files give me 0
stress. It could be the same for you if your security list decreased about 95 %.

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Old 26. May 2011, 06:34 AM   #23 (permalink)
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Quote:
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Providing permissions is far from no maintenance.
I think, maintaining your security list is stressful, changing temporarily a
permission for a site is not.
Its not your list that's keeping you safe, its SBIE. Your list gives
you stress, you just don't know it.

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Old 26. May 2011, 08:11 AM   #24 (permalink)
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Thanks to everyone for contributing to my little debate

deya's appraisal, as ever, is more scientific than mine

Incidentally my tech used to offer commercial AV licenses for free to customers who spent more than X amount on hardware within a given time period. He's now stopped this because the problems are too labour intensive. He was also telling me yesterday he went on a cleaning call to a customer with a service contract. The computer had been in use for 6 months but they were not aware of how to bookmark sites. This is just the type of user who is ripe for security marketing hype and who is likely to benefit less from installing Norton instead of MSE.
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Old 26. May 2011, 08:21 AM   #25 (permalink)
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@bo.elam: Even if I had only Flash, NoScript would still be a 9. I don't just visit a small number of websites each day, I explore the Internet quite a lot. NoScript cripples the experience, sometimes without my knowledge. JavaScript is the main issue, 98% of websites use it and many depend on it.
Unlike you, who has never even tried anything close my list, I've tried NoScript, and it's more stressful than anything else in my experience. Sandboxie is an integral part, but not the only effective part. You know that it cannot protect a system by itself, unless you install or execute absolutely nothing outside of the sandbox.
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Old 26. May 2011, 09:00 AM   #26 (permalink)
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Quote:
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@bo.elam: Even if I had only Flash, NoScript would still be a 9. I don't just visit a small number of websites each day, I explore the Internet quite a lot. NoScript cripples the experience, sometimes without my knowledge. JavaScript is the main issue, 98% of websites use it and many depend on it.
Unlike you, who has never even tried anything close my list, I've tried NoScript, and it's more stressful than anything else in my experience. Sandboxie is an integral part, but not the only effective part. You know that it cannot protect a system by itself, unless you install or execute absolutely nothing outside of the sandbox.
J,L, again, what you call "cripple", people like me call "safer". Personally I don't
care for Javasript. Everywhere Javascript is used, like you said, but there are
some of us that don't care for it and feel less stress when its not enable.
Why its that so hard for you to understand? I can understand why you dont
like it. OK.
Personally, I run everything sandboxed, it comes natural, like driving a bicycle.
In front of my computer, installing programs, like I said on my first post on
this thread, its the only thing that gives me a little stress. At that time, a
little brain work and common sense is required not a huge amount of apps
that are stressful just by having them installed.
Sandboxie by itself is keeping you clean, you just dont get it but keep in mind
that you have so much stuff in your computer that some of those things are,
at this moment, diminishing Sandboxies protection because of conflict.
Using SBIE and NS, for me, its a delight with zero stress and my threat level,
in my opinion, its close to zero. On Dec27 I dropped real time AV because,
to me, it was getting stressful. Today I am more relaxed because I don't
have to deal with updating often like you do. As you know, sometimes,
those updates are messy and I am very happy that I don't deal with that
anymore.


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Old 26. May 2011, 09:06 AM   #27 (permalink)
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Thanks to everyone for contributing to my little debate

deya's appraisal, as ever, is more scientific than mine

Incidentally my tech used to offer commercial AV licenses for free to customers who spent more than X amount on hardware within a given time period. He's now stopped this because the problems are too labour intensive. He was also telling me yesterday he went on a cleaning call to a customer with a service contract. The computer had been in use for 6 months but they were not aware of how to bookmark sites. This is just the type of user who is ripe for security marketing hype and who is likely to benefit less from installing Norton instead of MSE.
Hey MC, to me , absolutely "Having More = Less". The more applications
that I have to deal with, the less enjoyment I get of this beautiful world
called the World Wide Web.

Nice thread, big guy.
Bo
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Old 26. May 2011, 10:12 AM   #28 (permalink)
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Statistical premises aside, can I just toss in a fairly random 2c on the underlying "when more is less" question?

I reckon a personalized minimalist set-up can provide a viable approach to security for the sort of user who spends time on Gizmo's. In other words, the sort of discerning user who's willing to work out a personalized solution using tools like Gizmo's Security Wizard and MC's own Safer Computing Guide.

I'm no security expert, but I would have thought that for the wider population of computer users, including stations used by multiple users, there still needs to be a basic minimum, one size fits most approach. And I'd guess an AV (or MS Essentials) would still probably be part of that.

--------------
Where am I coming from?

Personally, I do run an AV even though I'm aware it's only picked up false positives for me in recent times. That's because I like to have the "feeling" of security that should I make some mistake in my own safe browsing habits or when someone else is at the keyboard without sandboxing, then something's there to spot it.

On my computer, I don't find security features to be a significant stressor, in contrast to connectivity issues which seem to arise at the least opportune moments. But in the past, I've had to work on infected work stations where critical updates have been systematically ignored. Those computers had an AV etc, but still didn't have a basic minimum.

Last edited by Bob; 26. May 2011 at 10:20 AM. Reason: MS Essentials
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Old 26. May 2011, 02:57 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J_L View Post
Providing permissions is far from no maintenance. If I still had NoScript, my stress level would be 9.
Really? Not for me. I have a simple "button" on my browser bar which allows NoScript to temporarily allow the site being blocked (if need be). The button next to it rescinds that decision.
(It also resets upon closing FireFox if I don't rescind. Couldn't be simpler or less stressful.)

There's no going through and adding to or culling lists. A simple "click" and it's done.
(A simple click and it's undone.)

FWIW, I'm on the web/net much of each day and I am a super moderator at a very large website (unrelated to computer security). I have not found utilizing NoScript to be a burden at all.
(And I do definitely prefer to keep things as simple and streamlined as possible.)

To each his own.
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Last edited by blues; 26. May 2011 at 03:03 PM.
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Old 26. May 2011, 04:09 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Bob, the points you made earlier about statistics are valid and I agree with what you're saying. Statistics are important, and the people who gather them I would say, on the whole, do it honestly. But statistics can be gathered in different ways, used in different ways or interpreted in different ways, depending on who's reading them, to a point where 'statistic' becomes 'fact' - then it's misleading.

You can look at statistics and then make a measured decision on whether you go with brand X, Y or Z. They may show that brand Y is going to suit your needs best and that, statistically, it's better than X and Z. But it's not fact, even though the statistics show that Y will be best for you, it may well turn out to be the case that it's not. So when I say you either believe them or you don't, I mean that statistics can help people make decisions, but they're not always fact and shouldn't be read that way because they are only the result of a 'test.'


You're totally correct in defending independent sites like this one, Gizmos, because there is no commercial advantage to be gained in manipulating any kind of stats, no matter what the product or it's use. So Websites like this one become much more useful, reliable, more relevant than the stats and tests we're referring to here. Because I believe that the reviewers write their reviews honestly, and only after genuinely testing the various products in the real world - as in every day use, and I trust that.

Likewise, via threads like this one, I believe that the members contribute by posting their findings on various topics, using real world experiences, and in an honest way. But this being the forum everything is open to debate, opinions differ and that's great because, even though I use them, I trust the information provided on here more than the statistics. So much so that I now run a spare in virtual only, no AV installed at all, surf and download in my usual manner, stick to WOT ratings and use Norton DNS. And although it's nice to have the safety net of virtual to fall back on (almost zero stress) I've not encountered anything nasty in normal day to day use, nothing has tried to take over the machine or anything.

In the real world, the world that I work in etc, I can't use virtual so I put my trust in a more beefed up combination of the one I described for the seventeen, which is:

System + third party firewall + MSE + WinPatrol free + WOT + Norton DNS = low stress.

Risk level? - again, I don't know. But it's working for me, clean system.
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