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Old 22. Aug 2010, 05:03 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Password keepers

Please forgive the length of this post. I am pasting in a discussion from the freeware software site.

What I have found, is that the subject of "password keepers" gets mixed up with "web form fillers" and the "web form fillers" tend to take over the discussion.

But I need the opposite to be true! I need a localized username/password database, that is stored locally on my system and I don't really care if it does web form filling. My web site logins are automated with Firefox anyway. But I do want to store them locally, in case I need to redo my system or something and have to start from scratch with logging into various web sites. And I need to store the user names and passwords for software that I only run locally on my system.

And I also need it to handle other user name/password entries, such as for my router/NAS and other devices and so forth that I do not save the passwords for in my browser.

So my goal is a locally saved password database and web form filling is an afterthought for me.

In other words, I don't need it to integrate with any browser, for any reason at all. For me, this is just to be a local database.

I currently have "Flyingbit Password Keeper", which is also free and can be found at: http://www.pwkeeper.com/ and runs at startup and can be called up with a hotkey combination, etc..

It does web form filling, but focuses on saving passwords the way that I am talking about. And the buttons and stuff are really simply laid out and it divides passwords into categories, such as "Network", "Web Sites", etc., which is really nice! Also, it allows you to select from different types for each "entry" (Login, URL, Password, Card Number, Serial, etc.).

The problem is, that when I go to set up a new entry, it doesn't give me the entry boxes that would seem to make sense to me, such as "User Name" and "Password" and instead calls them, "Field Data", and "Comment", etc..

Rather, you have to create an separate entry card for each thing (User Name, Password, URL, etc.). But it does work and the great thing to me, is that it does not force me to hide a password with asterisks, which I don't want to do. I want a quick call up, without having to "unhide" a password every time I look one up.

It was suggested to me to try the following three programs:

KeePass

Era Password Manager : http://www.dheone.com/

Sisma Password Manager : http://www.digitalconfidence.com/Sis...d-Manager.html

I did not like Era, nor Sisma.

KeePass is nice, in that it lets you put everything into one entry and it seems to have enough space for almost everything. However, what it does not do (that Flyingbit does do), is allow me to keep the passwords visible. In other words, it keeps reverting them back to asterisks and you have to go into the entry and then click the button to reveal the password, creating a few steps to finally get to the password. This is too much work!

I am currently using a text file that has all of my information and I open it and then just use the standard search to find what I'm looking for and I am just trying to keep this as simple as I can.

I am trying to get a database together, because a long text file can get confusing, as some entries are repeated and because it's hard to know what you have where and you end up with double entries, etc..

So I definitely do need a simple password manager, but AS ALWAYS, one program will have one NECESSARY thing and another will have the other NECESSARY thing.

I need the simplicity of KeePass, while also being able to see the passwords as soon as the entry is listed on my screen. I do not want to have to even go into an entry in the first place, let alone have to go into it and then perform another step to reveal the password.

KeePass would offer me this, since it lays the info out across the screen, if it didn't hide the passwords on me using asterisks that I can't disable!

As I said, one program will offer....

Any ideas? I looked all through the options of KeePass and I cannot find an option that will let me do this. The asterisks cannot be disabled.

Or, maybe I am wrong about having to make separate entry cards for each thing within one places information? I hope so, because it does let me see the password without even opening the entry up!

I am running Windows 7 x64, in case that helps.

Thanks!
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Old 22. Aug 2010, 06:48 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Hi GiantWaffle, welcome to the forum . Thanks a lot for accepting the request and posting this here. Now, this topic can be discussed in detail here, and others can also contribute to it, and things will be organized.

After having conversation with you in the comments section, I tried out Flybit Password Keeper. I was quite disappointed by it. I found that the program was not intuitive at all.

I created a database and gave location to it. I chose a master password, and I added an entry to the database. I saved and closed the software. When I again tried to open the same database, I was unable to. Even if I select the database, it does not appear in the list, and I cannot open it. Earlier, I thought this was happening because at first I had only created the database, but not added any entries. But, I just made an entry, and even then I am not able to load the database. So, for me, the program fails at the start only.

For adding entries too, the software is not intuitive. It uses strange terms for adding entries etc. Any person who is not familiar with these terms will be easily confused. Even I was not able to figure out for a while, how to add entries. I was able to create a new item under the given groups. But, when I wanted to add any entries to the item, I was not able to find anything on the toolbox or the menu. Then I right clicked the item, and there was the option... not intuitive.

For adding entries too, different fields are given in a drop down list like password, user ID, URL etc. Its tedious to choose an entry every time. I disliked that. Maybe its just my choice that I do not like it.

I am not pleased with the software, and don't intend to use it.
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Old 22. Aug 2010, 07:03 PM   #3 (permalink)
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I checked out KeePass. You are right... it does not gives you the option to show the password in plain text permanently. But, I think that is a good security feature. And why would u want to know the password all the time anyway. The program stores it, and you just have to copy it, to use it. The copy will work, even if the password shows in asterisks. And, if you do need to see the password, in case you forget it, its always easy to just go to "edit", and then see the password. I actually liked the feature, as it offers security.

I too have a long list of usernames and passwords for different sites, IMs etc, and its quite difficult to remember all the passwords. I too wanted a software for just storing the passwords securely, without the need to autofill the web forms. So, I had checked out a lot of free password managers. Many of them were outdated, and not developed anymore. I was also looking for software which would let me store some extra information like comments about the entry. So, I had narrowed my choices down to 3-4 choices. Sisma and Era were the two. But, I think KeePass is quite good.

I have yet to use these out extensively though, because I had just chosen the software I wanted to use. The actual use would be when I put the entries into them. I have putting it off, because its a long list, and it would take time to key in the entries.
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Old 22. Aug 2010, 07:38 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anupam View Post
Hi GiantWaffle, welcome to the forum . Thanks a lot for accepting the request and posting this here. Now, this topic can be discussed in detail here, and others can also contribute to it, and things will be organized.

After having conversation with you in the comments section, I tried out Flybit Password Keeper. I was quite disappointed by it. I found that the program was not intuitive at all.

I created a database and gave location to it. I chose a master password, and I added an entry to the database. I saved and closed the software. When I again tried to open the same database, I was unable to. Even if I select the database, it does not appear in the list, and I cannot open it. Earlier, I thought this was happening because at first I had only created the database, but not added any entries. But, I just made an entry, and even then I am not able to load the database. So, for me, the program fails at the start only.

For adding entries too, the software is not intuitive. It uses strange terms for adding entries etc. Any person who is not familiar with these terms will be easily confused. Even I was not able to figure out for a while, how to add entries. I was able to create a new item under the given groups. But, when I wanted to add any entries to the item, I was not able to find anything on the toolbox or the menu. Then I right clicked the item, and there was the option... not intuitive.

For adding entries too, different fields are given in a drop down list like password, user ID, URL etc. Its tedious to choose an entry every time. I disliked that. Maybe its just my choice that I do not like it.

I am not pleased with the software, and don't intend to use it.
I agree with you about the terms not being intuitive. That's what I said to you in the review section of the web site.

However, I did not have any problem loading the database and as far as setting up entries, yes, I did have to look at the help on the web page (which does walk you right through it), but as far as the menu system, I don't use that. I use what is intuitive (aside from the terms).

In other words, I use the big plus sign to add the next step and the pencil button to edit, etc..

But I'm sure you also see now how you have to make separate entries for each part of what you need to know for a password setup, meaning an antry for the user name, an entry for the password, etc., meaning that you have to set up entry cards for each one, just to make a whole entry for one web site, for example!

But again, I do love the way that it doesn't hide the password on me, if I don't want it to! The others do and force me to go through steps, just to see it and my password text file is less work, even as bad as using it is, since it is long and I end up with double entries and stuff.
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Old 22. Aug 2010, 07:57 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anupam View Post
I checked out KeePass. You are right... it does not gives you the option to show the password in plain text permanently. But, I think that is a good security feature. And why would u want to know the password all the time anyway.
Okay, I don't want you to take this the wrong way, okay? I am rally not trying to be rude here. But I didn't ask you to question me as to why I want them visible and to tell me that I should go through those extra steps, because *you* think it's good that way.

You see, I don't care about the security of that database. I don't even care if the program is designed for that purpose. I would use an MS Access database, if it had the fields that I wanted!

Right now, I use a text file. How secure is that?

All I want to do, is store my information into a database, that allows me to instantly call up user names and passwords, URL's, etc., for what I am trying to log in to, whether it be a web site, or a piece of software, or my online banking, or whatever. And I don't want to work to get it done! I don't need to make logging in twice the headache that it already is, which is twice the headache already (should I have to look one up). Do you understand what I'm saying here?

I just want a simple to use database in which I can store the information that I'm talking about and that I would have a really easy time with, should I, for example, have to wipe my system, start from scratch and call up each password to get things set up. That's it. I am *not* trying to add more security.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anupam View Post
I too have a long list of usernames and passwords for different sites, IMs etc, and its quite difficult to remember all the passwords. I too wanted a software for just storing the passwords securely, without the need to autofill the web forms.
Okay, now here is where we part company on what we're looking for. While as I said, I don't care about the auto-filling, please reread your sentence, but take the word "securely" out of it.

I simply do not care about string them *securely*. I just want to store them and make them as easy as possible to call up again. As easy as say, looking at the Windows clipboard. Is the text there "secure"? Of course not.

Again, please don't think me rude. I only mean to be direct and I truly am appreciative of your taking the time out to check this out for me. I really am.

All I'm saying is, that I know what I want and please don't rethink it for me as if I don't. I intentionally don't care about security with this particular type of software. I just want easy of calling it up. I secure my entire system in other ways and believe me, if they get through me, then they'd have my passwords anyway. But as it stands right now, even a keylogger could not log even what I'm typing right now! So although no security is unbreakable, I am secure, my friend.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anupam View Post
So, I had checked out a lot of free password managers. Many of them were outdated, and not developed anymore.
Which is fine with me! I don't care if it's ever updated again! As long as it does what I want it to do right now and can do it under Win7 x64, whether it was written with Win7 in mind or not. As long as it works.

I understand where you're coming from. Most people want to have the latest version and the latest features, etc.. But me? I keep a whole ton of software archived and when I find a version that works as advertised and does what it says it will do, under various OS's, then I don't go out looking for updates for it. In fact, I always turn off the "Check for Updates" feature in software. Why take the chance that maybe the next version won't work, when I have something that's doing exactly what I want it to right now?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Anupam View Post
I was also looking for software which would let me store some extra information like comments about the entry.
Comments I don't care about, although I can see why some people would want them. For me, the comments field is only handy if they haven't put enough of the necessary fields in. Then I can use the comments field as if it were the field I need.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Anupam View Post
So, I had narrowed my choices down to 3-4 choices. Sisma and Era were the two.
I couldn't even get those two to operate properly for me. One of them just didn't want to run right and the other just didn't have what I needed, although I did like how simple it *looked* like it would be. But it did *not* work.

Anyway, thanks so much and if you come up with something, please let me know, okay?
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Old 23. Aug 2010, 08:01 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Okay, I picked one.

I am using "Sisma". Mainly because it has lots of fields that I can use and it's pretty simple. The passwords are still hidden, but it's got the little "Copy" button next to each field, so I can just click that and then paste it in.

The only problems with the software are as follows:

1) It doesn't have any option to start with Windows and thus, no option to minimize on startup.

2) You can't enter the software without using a master password, but most of them are like that.

3) There's no hotkey setup, to bring the software up, if you do run it and minimize it.

4) There are two sets of options. The options in "TOOLS >> OPTIONS" do not stick when you set them. Exit the software and reload it and they're back to the defaults. I know this isn't an issue with the program being able to save data, since it does save the changes I make to the database just fine.

I am wondering if the problem with the options not sticking, is due to me running the Zipped version (which is like a portable version, in that you just make a folder, drop the program's files into it and make a shortcut to it and run it) instead of the "Install" version, which I'm sure writes some entries into the registry.

But then again, I tend to dismiss that idea, because the other option set, found at: "DATABASE >> DATABASE SETTINGS" accepts the changes just fine and retains the changes.

But then again, maybe what I said is the problem, because maybe the "database" options are part of the database, which saves as a separate file from some configuration file that the program saves its own "program" options to and by the way, when I look in the folder, the only "saved" file I see, is the database, so maybe it isn't able to save the "program" options, due to it not being the "Windows Install" version of the program. But then how would it work in a portable setting, you know?

Anyway, I'm rambling now. If anyone has any ideas, or has run into this and knows what the issue actually is, then please let me know. I would appreciate it greatly!
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Old 23. Aug 2010, 09:01 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Sisma has got a hotkey to bring it forward. Its Clt+Alt+S. Its given under Tools --> Options, and its checked by default.

You are right that if we set the options, and next time we start Sisma, the options are reset to default. This is a bug I think. There should have been some config file, where the options would have been saved.

I will write to their support about it. Lets see what they respond.
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Old 23. Aug 2010, 09:09 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Sisma has got a hotkey to bring it forward. Its Clt+Alt+S. Its given under Tools --> Options, and its checked by default.

You are right that if we set the options, and next time we start Sisma, the options are reset to default. This is a bug I think. There should have been some config file, where the options would have been saved.

I will write to their support about it. Lets see what they respond.
Okay, thanks!
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Old 23. Aug 2010, 10:50 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Okay, I found out what the deal is with Sisma!

You DO have to use the normal Windows installer to get it to save the options you set in "TOOLS >> OPTIONS" when you exit the software, so it must be as I said earlier, that it writes entries into the registry during the install and saves the changes for those options there.

What I still do not see though, is a way to get it to run at Windows startup. There are no options for:

Run at Windows Startup

Minimize when run (at startup)

I think this may be related to the fact that it loads my database when it starts and that requires a password and so, it can't load until that password is entered anyway.

did try, just for kicks, to create an icon for it and set it to run "Minimized" in the shortcut's properties. The problem is though, that when I try to run it, I get a .NET error, but I do have the latest updates installed into Windows 7 Ultimate x64.

If I clicked on "Continue" anyway, then it would continue, but if memory serves, would then error out completely. Or maybe it asked for the password and ran after that. I don't remember.

But anyway, running it at startup seems to be out of the question, which is kind of strange, because I was able to run a different password program at startup that had a master password and it didn't ask for the password, until I actually tried to use the program and it would start up and go to the System Tray just fine on Windows Startup, so I don't know. Since Sisma doesn't have an option to set for this, it must not be geared to do this.

So I would like to see this option in the program, to run at Windows Startup and immediately minimize without prompting for a password.

I would also like to see an option to leave the Master Password blank, so that it doesn't require one at all, since again, security is not my first concern with this particular program. Usefulness is. But it has turned out to be a good little program and thanks for the suggestion to try it! Once I figured it out, I really like it!

If you find out any more about it, please let me know, okay? I would really VERY much appreciate it!!!
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Old 23. Aug 2010, 03:29 PM   #10 (permalink)
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I now have the response from Sisma :

Quote:
The options of the portable version of Sisma are currently not retained
indeed. They are retained in the installable version. We will change
that in a future release of Sisma.
So, basically, this is what you already found out by yourself.

I have asked them, how soon the new version will be released. I will post the reply once I receive it.

About startup with Windows, you can put the shortcut in the startup folder, and the program should start at boot. I don't think the software will allow you to have a blank master password. These software are to provide you security for passwords, which are very personal information. Imagine anyone else getting hold of your password list. That's why they will ask for password on startup, and also won't allow a blank master password.

Yes, I understand your requirements that you do not require any such features, but requirements such as yours are special cases. In most of the cases, these security features are required, and without these the software would not have any reason to exist at all.

If these requirements do not suit you, then you should go for a small database program, where you can create your own fields, and enter the values.

Its good that you liked Sisma. If you have feature requests for the product, you should write to them. I think they will appreciate the feedback. Or, if you want me to convey to them, I can do that.

Their support email is support [AT] digitalconfidence.com
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