Need some basic drive imaging advice (Paragon DBE free

[grannyGrump]

I read the great critiques of free drive imaging programs, and have pretty well narrowed my choice down to Paragon DBE
(because I'm running Vista Home Premium 64-bit --- not too many free ones support 64-bit yet, and because I have no internet connection at home, I can't even try Macrium since it needs to activate by an online connection.)

My almost-new Dell Studio 1537 laptop has a System Recovery partition, and came with dvds "For Reinstallation of Vista HP 64-bit", "For Reinstallation of Drivers & Utilities", and a couple of application installation disks.

I want to un-install some of the OEM-preloaded applications, and install my own anti-virus, office suite, etc. Then create an image that I can use for any future disaster recovery.

Before I download and install and maybe waste my time, I'd like to know ---

how does the "recovery disk" part work? I'm assuming the recovery disk is needed to boot up the computer to begin the image restore process.

Does the Express version creation wizard handle everything to build the recovery disk, or do I need to download anything?

I read on the Paragon site that the Recovery Disk was only available for pay versions. Kind of hard to find more information about the bootable recovery disk.
(edited quotes from Paragon Knowledge Base

Our Bootable Recovery/Copy CD is a special add-on developed as an alternative for Windows environment. It provides some opportunities when one can't use our software under Windows for certain reasons. All functions of our software products under Windows can be found on Recovery CD and even more:

........Recovery CD includes Paragon Linux and Paragon DOS. You can read about their differences in the manual. In general, we recommend you to use Linux as it has more capabilities.
......We recommend you to download the Recovery CD image, burn it and store away to be on the safe side.

Q: How to create bootable Recovery CD?
......Download a self-burning archive with an image of Recovery CD from update page for the product (usually you can get there by 'Help' -> 'About' -> 'Download Update')
.......Please note: Update section is available only for users who possess full commercial version of the product. Trial and demo versions usually don't have Recovery CD as a unit.....

If I have totally misunderstood the restore/recovery process, please forgive, and tell me the correct information.

Thanks for any advice.

[chris.p]

Hi,

Can't help with Paragon DBE-specific stuff as I haven't used it, but someone else might kick in.

Here's a link for the Paragon boot disc. This is from a 3rd party and not tested in any way so you need to scan it well for nasties and also test it before you need it for real.

mediafire[DOT]com/?jxmjvnnmlud
[rebuild the URL to the conventional form]

I don't understand the Paragon situation you report ("no boot disk build available with the DBE edition") as without it the image can't be restored, but anyway a link to it is above.

Boot CD operation etc works like this:
- you make an image file of your current hard disk
- you create that directly onto a USB external disk
- you then create the boot CD, from within the program (normally)
- you then TEST YOUR IMAGE, & THE RESTORE PROCEDURE, on another PC or spare disk or whatever (not on your main disk that you just imaged, dohh)
- when you need to rebuild a drive or maybe start a new larger disk you bought, then boot up with the Boot CD, this gets a cut-down OS running
- navigate to where your image file is, maybe on a USB disk
- restore it via the controls the Boot CD gives you
- you're done

So maybe that answers some of your questions? Sorry I can't answer the Paragon-specific ones.

Also you might find that any boot disc of this type will work, such as the UBCD4Win one, which is recommended. There are some issues here but it's worth trying if there is no alternative.

[grannyGrump]

Hi, thanks for responding.

I may have confused myself with terminology --- part of the trouble is the Windows references to system Recovery and to system Restore.

Using a restore point is not like doing a System Recovery, (and the only system recoveries I've ever done are to factory default using the OEM-supplied "recovery" disk/partition.

So Paragon's site says that what is availabe with the Free edition is a "restore disk", but only the paid version gets a "bootable recovery disk".

Owner of the program can create three types of recovery media:

Simple Restore Wizard CD(SRW CD)
Simple Restore Wizard floppy disk(SRW FD)
Full Recovery CD
The first two can be created using built-in Recovery Media Builder wizard from main product screen and requires no additional downloads. The last one is distributed as separate package(self-burning packed ISO-image) and is available from updates page for customers who have purchased full versions of the software.

I need to know if that "restore disk" (created with the Paragon wizard) will be able to boot my computer if I have a serious crash, or do I need to build some other type of disk. If UCBD4win or such is needed, how does that work to restore (re-install) my saved disk image.

Am I making this more complicated than it needs to be?

[chris.p]

Hmm, first off you need two things:

- a USB hard drive or similar to put your image file on (a DVD might do for a very small new drive perhaps)
- another PC or a spare laptop drive so you can test the image and the restore process

So have you got those? No point in going any further if not. The second point there, somewhere to test it, actually solves all your questions anyway. You just do it.

You can't make a disk image if you've got nowhere to test it, there's no point. I don't know what the percentage of first-time users whose image fails one way or another is - but it's a decent number.

And of course if you've got a spare PC (or maybe better, a spare laptop hard disk), and as the image application is free - then there are no questions that need to be asked any longer, you can suck it and see. Yes?

So I reckon you don't have anywhere to test the image as yet. And that's the first thing you need to rectify.

As regards Windows restore etc etc -- I guess maybe I'm a bit unconventional but when I get a new machine I just strip it right down to bare metal. I don't want any of the trash that dealers or whoever put on there. So all that other stuff is kind of redundant - I do a skinny OS install and image that; then expand the OS with service packs etc and do an incremental image; then add some apps and data and image that; then again.

I stop around 5 or 6 incrementals and call it a day. After that I do data backups, no more disk images. Every 6 months I wipe the hard drive and install the image plus the rollup data.

The UBCD (which incorporates the BartPE system and requires an original Windows installer disc of some kind) is a skinny operating system (plus some other useful tools and stuff). The OS allows you to run the PC in a very restricted mode. You can navigate to the image file and then click it to run it. If that image file is self-contained, it would then auto-install. However I don't know if this applies to any image apps, it doesn't for Macrium for example, you need some Macrium files on the boot CD. Acronis is fully self-contained on the boot disc.

[grannyGrump]

warning! More silly questions ahead...

I have a plethora of external hard drives (5 USB, to be exact, plus one Firewire --- I mess around a lot with video....) , so storing the image is no problem, only testing the image.

Is it possible to *test* an image without actually installing it?
I do have a tower pc, but it is XP Pro 32-bit. I don't think that would work, would it?


Your "new machine" scenario may be unconventional, but sounds very attractive.
On my XP machine, I started with a clean OS install, and the only actual installed application is AVAST. All my office, media, & utilities are no-install / "portable" versions, and a good number of those I actually run from a usb drive. My "add/remove programs" only lists AVAST, codecs, and drivers, No Adobe, no Real, no Java......
it echoes when I open it up

[chris.p]

Well, there are no silly questions about this topic, it's too complex......when you're jumping in first time, anyway.

You've got plenty of spare storage so that's good. In your case, then, I'd advise you not to use Compression when asked by the image creation process. It's one of the main sources of image failures. Example: a disk (of any size) with 10GB of stuff on it will result in an image of about 5GB under medium / normal compression. But you hardly need to worry about that, so opt for zero compression, it's safer.

Testing the image can only be done by installing it. The proof of the pudding. You 'verify' it after creating it but it can still easily fail, believe me. But you've got a problem there, huh, a 64-bit image to be tested. That'll teach you to go out on the bleeding edge eh?

One solution is get another disk for your laptop. All the best ones have slide-out disks, it's about the #1 option to look for. I've got a Dell and although I wouldn't buy one of their PCs (as they aren't PCs), the laptops are good - and mine has a slide-out disk even though it's just a mid-range machine. Try yours.
ps - turn it off first

[grannyGrump]

bleeding and suffering edge, if you ask me.....
I wasn't really aware of how many problems 64-bit would cause in my life.
Believe me, I did NOT want Vista, but nothing is being sold anymore with XP installed I've been perfectly happy with XP ever since it came on market, and am seriously considering hunting down XP 64-bit to install on my Dell.


Getting another drive for the Dell could be problem, I can't shop online.

Would it work to test the image on the laptop, and then if it fails, use the "factory recovery" partition or disks to re-install back to the beginning?

Well, I gotta shut this down, end of day for me, I'll check back in the morning.
Thanks for coddling me through this, greatly appreciated.

[chris.p]

You can still buy XP loaded machines but you have to hunt for them. Vista hasn't been 100% successful and the trade aren't happy about that, so they supply 'XP downgrades' in order to stay in business and keep the money coming in. Just search 'xp laptop' or 'xp downgrade' and you'll see. I just bought one.

The guys here tell me (if I understood right) that you can load a standard OS to a 64-bit machine and it'll run fine. In other words you could load your XP 32-bit OS onto the 64-bit laptop. Don't know if you knew that. Yes there might be a legal issue there but morally and ethically you are 100% right to do so, so I certainly don't have a problem advising that in public.

Re. wiping your laptop by overwriting it with an image, that's a bad idea. There must be better options than this. Yes you could mess around doing partitions etc but to me that's (a) not a solution as restoring a partition to a bare metal disk is not guaranteed to work, and (b) it misses the whole point which is that you should have a 1-click image create and a 1-click whole-disk restore - well, ideally of course

There are various reasons why this is not a good idea and I can't agree with anyone advising it (which I've seen). Just because someone makes the mistake of advising it online doesn't make it right. Sure, it's OK if you are talking about a 'disposable' install, in other words a brand new one also with the original installer disc right there. I've been writing about disk imaging online since 2002 but I never advised anyone yet to wipe their main disk with an image

In your position I know exactly what I'd do - load XP standard to the laptop. For me that would be the perfect solution. If you want to run your 64-bit Vista and test an image made from it, you need a spare disk on a 64-bit machine to test it. That's the result of being out on the leading edge.

From an engineer's point of view that's the last place to be - but I guess there are a lot of market forces out there...

[grannyGrump]

chris, you've given me food for thought --- The 32-bit os running in 64-bit system is something I hadn't known was possible. Maybe I will load XP on the laptop as a dual-boot option, if I can find a good cookbook-style tutorial to partion and install.

further questions about destroying my installation -----
in addition to the "recovery partition" and self-burned recovery disks, I also have Dell disks "For Reinstallation of Vista HP SP1", and "For Reinstallation of Drivers and Utilities", as well as a couple unwanted OEM-supplied application install disks.

Do those Reinstallation disks make the future any brighter? I've never had this kind of disk before, if things ever get totally hammered, could I re-install Vista using these disks instead of using the recovery disks? (I know they are only for this laptop, not for other machines.)

[chris.p]

Just couldn't say if that really works for bare metal, ie a totally clean drive. I don't think anyone can state a definite opinion unless they have the same setup. I've heard experiences both ways ("it worked" and "didn't work on a bare disk") so take your choice.

The only system I know that works is an image, assuming you tested it.

Why don't you just image the drive anyway, it doesn't cost anything. There's no way to test it unless you have a 64-bit setup to try it on, a spare laptop drive for example. Just act as though you don't have an image to restore, since it's untested.

Also you can get a 64-bit Linux distro, it's an interesting alternative to Vista 64. And free of course.

For drivers I normally go online and download the full set from the support site, it's a good way to get the latest ones as well, they sometimes get an upgrade after the machine has been out a few months.

Why not get some good backup software for your everyday data, there is some good advice on the site here. You can also find info about partitioning etc.

If you're asking me if you can image your drive, then nuke it and test out the image, I'm sorry but there's no way I'd suggest that

You just need spares for stuff, if you don't have spares then you're either stuck or dependent on the local repair shop. You are a capable person so it's not really a situation that you need to be in, with a couple of spare bits and bobs you could sort it all out yourself. You know more about this stuff than 95% of the people out there, you just need the tools and spares.

When I go mobile on my boat I take a spare drive, spare trackball, spare USB floppy drive, long range wifi cantenna etc. You need the tools and spares. Sounds like you are somewhere remote. Hope it's warm.